Hi we have tried to find one we know of. I also know of 2 more somewhere I beleive in Alameda??? They are fun to do cause the coords from the GPS take you right to it.

Stephanie Bryant wrote:What do you all think of letterbox hybrids? They're geocaches and
letterboxes in one: a set of clues goes up on letterboxing.org, and a
set of coordinates go up at geocaching.com. They have a stamp and
logbook in them. I think there are about 4 in Santa Cruz County.

--Stephanie

--
Stephanie Bryant
mortaine@gmail.com
http://www.mortaine.com

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The only problem I have with hybrids is that sometimes novice
geocachers take the stamp as a swap item! So, if you plant one, please
make it unmistakably clear that the stamp and logbook must stay at the
location. I've seen it where the LB portion is in a separate container
within the larger geocache container with warnings pasted all over it.
This seems to work well!

-- Princess Lea

On Feb 15, 2005, at 7:35 AM, Stephanie Bryant wrote:

>
> What do you all think of letterbox hybrids? They're geocaches and
> letterboxes in one: a set of clues goes up on letterboxing.org, and a
> set of coordinates go up at geocaching.com. They have a stamp and
> logbook in them. I think there are about 4 in Santa Cruz County.
>
> --Stephanie
>
> --
> Stephanie Bryant
> mortaine@gmail.com
> http://www.mortaine.com
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yeah, I was thinking it would be best if the stamp were actually
attached to the box, perhaps glued to the lid (a film canister micro
would actually work really well for that!) I'd hate to have a
hand-made stamp grabbed!

--Stephanie

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:30:26 -0800, Lea Shangraw Fox
wrote:
>
> The only problem I have with hybrids is that sometimes novice
> geocachers take the stamp as a swap item! So, if you plant one, please
> make it unmistakably clear that the stamp and logbook must stay at the
> location.

--
Stephanie Bryant
mortaine@gmail.com
http://www.mortaine.com

> What do you all think of letterbox hybrids?

I would discourage you from planting hybrids. Ask yourself this, why
do you want to combine the two boxes? Typically, people who are
thinking about planting hybrids have two answers:

1. To encourage those who are geocachers to "make the jump" into
letterboxing. Especially in areas that have few letterboxes to begin
with.

There's the problem with that logic, however. Once a geocacher finds
the cache, it's worthless to them as a letterbox since they'll already
know where the box is! You'd be better off hiding a geocache and
letterbox close, but keep them as two distinct entities. Then, in the
cache, provide clues for the nearby letterbox. Not only will
geocachers learn about letterboxing, but they'll even have an
opportunity to find one. Much better, all things considered.

The other answer people give:

2. There aren't many letterboxers in my area and if it's not a hybrid,
the box may never get any visitors!

In a case like that, it's basically just a geocache if only geocachers
are visiting a hybid. Why waste your time carving a stamp if nobody
who visits will appreciate it, or if they do, are likely to take it
and replace it with some cheap toy from a Cracker Jack box?

On a more personal level, if you check out my tutorial on Creating
Great Letterboxes at
http://www.geocities.com/rscarpen/Lb/Docs/GreatBoxes/ you'll notice
the one thing I really try to hammer down is "Choose Your Audience".
The more specific an audience you can identify for your box, the
better it will turn out. If you can't even decide to make the box for
a letterboxer or a geocacher, your box will be destined for, at best,
the rank of mediocre and you'll get a reputation for hiding, at best,
mediocre boxes.

So yeah, I'm definitely on record as an 'anti-hybrid' kind of guy.
Hasn't stopped others from hiding hybrids, though. ;o)

-- Ryan

Ryan,

I read your page on making good boxes, and while I think knowing your
audience is good, I also find that the main difference between a
geocacher and a letterboxer is that a geocacher is less interested in
the craft portion of the sport, and the letterboxer would rather have
a puzzle to solve and a good, hand-made stamp than anything else.
Geocachers love puzzles, too.

A geocache doesn't need to be exactly at its coordinates, either. In
fact, my opinion of hybrids is that they're too easy to find if the
coordinates are for the hybrid cache, and not for the start of the
clue trail. Many geocaches are called "offset" caches, where the
coordinates given are near the cache, but you have to solve a puzzle
or follow some clues to find it (much like in letterboxing, where you
get information on the start of the trail, and follow the path to the
box, sometimes using a compass to help navigate).

Personally, I think the advantage of a hybrid box is that it reduces
the impact on the environment, by only having one place for people to
look. If you place two boxes, say a couple hundred feet from each
other, then you have the letterboxers going to find their box, and the
geocachers going to find their separate box. Both groups may end up
trammelling the area a bit more than if the boxes were in one place.
Geocachers often use existing trampled grasses to help them find a
cache-- they're more likely to find the letterbox on accident and
wonder why the cache has a stamp in it. Conversely, if the letterboxer
misreads the clues or gets off track, they might wonder where the
stamp is when they find the geocache.

That's the reason I would give for "why do you want to place a
hybrid?" It's an interesting site that members of both groups would
enjoy, but I would want to localize the potential impact to one spot
in the area.

--Stephanie

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:37:57 -0000, rscarpen
wrote:
> > What do you all think of letterbox hybrids?
>
> I would discourage you from planting hybrids. Ask yourself this, why
> do you want to combine the two boxes? Typically, people who are
> thinking about planting hybrids have two answers:


--
Stephanie Bryant
mortaine@gmail.com
http://www.mortaine.com

--- In LbNCA@yahoogroups.com, Michelle Boot wrote:
> Hi we have tried to find one we know of. I also know of 2 more
somewhere I beleive in Alameda??? They are fun to do cause the
coords from the GPS take you right to it.
>
> Stephanie Bryant wrote:What do you all think of
letterbox hybrids? They're geocaches and
> letterboxes in one: a set of clues goes up on letterboxing.org,
and a
> set of coordinates go up at geocaching.com. They have a stamp and
> logbook in them. I think there are about 4 in Santa Cruz County.
>
> --Stephanie
>
> --
> Stephanie Bryant
> mortaine@g...
> http://www.mortaine.com
>
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One of our first letterbox finds was a letterbox/geocache hybrid in
Alameda. It was fun, until we realized a geocacher had taken the
letterbox stamp in exchange for some other trinket. This is a
persistent problem with hybrids since many geocachers do not
understand the purpose of the letterboxing stamp.

Grumpy Grinch

--- In LbNCA@yahoogroups.com, Michelle Boot wrote:
> Hi we have tried to find one we know of. I also know of 2 more
somewhere I beleive in Alameda??? They are fun to do cause the
coords from the GPS take you right to it.
>
> Stephanie Bryant wrote:What do you all think of
letterbox hybrids? They're geocaches and
> letterboxes in one: a set of clues goes up on letterboxing.org,
and a
> set of coordinates go up at geocaching.com. They have a stamp and
> logbook in them. I think there are about 4 in Santa Cruz County.
>
> --Stephanie
>
> --
> Stephanie Bryant
> mortaine@g...
> http://www.mortaine.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> document.write('');
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>
>
>
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hey now Ryan we Geocache too... ;) Thats how I found out about Letterboxing. We like it just as much if not more and try to do both whenever we go out. However I do like the idea of having thrm seperate, gives us more to have fun doing. M

rscarpen wrote:
> What do you all think of letterbox hybrids?

I would discourage you from planting hybrids. Ask yourself this, why
do you want to combine the two boxes? Typically, people who are
thinking about planting hybrids have two answers:

1. To encourage those who are geocachers to "make the jump" into
letterboxing. Especially in areas that have few letterboxes to begin
with.

There's the problem with that logic, however. Once a geocacher finds
the cache, it's worthless to them as a letterbox since they'll already
know where the box is! You'd be better off hiding a geocache and
letterbox close, but keep them as two distinct entities. Then, in the
cache, provide clues for the nearby letterbox. Not only will
geocachers learn about letterboxing, but they'll even have an
opportunity to find one. Much better, all things considered.

The other answer people give:

2. There aren't many letterboxers in my area and if it's not a hybrid,
the box may never get any visitors!

In a case like that, it's basically just a geocache if only geocachers
are visiting a hybid. Why waste your time carving a stamp if nobody
who visits will appreciate it, or if they do, are likely to take it
and replace it with some cheap toy from a Cracker Jack box?

On a more personal level, if you check out my tutorial on Creating
Great Letterboxes at
http://www.geocities.com/rscarpen/Lb/Docs/GreatBoxes/ you'll notice
the one thing I really try to hammer down is "Choose Your Audience".
The more specific an audience you can identify for your box, the
better it will turn out. If you can't even decide to make the box for
a letterboxer or a geocacher, your box will be destined for, at best,
the rank of mediocre and you'll get a reputation for hiding, at best,
mediocre boxes.

So yeah, I'm definitely on record as an 'anti-hybrid' kind of guy.
Hasn't stopped others from hiding hybrids, though. ;o)

-- Ryan




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ryan, you are the voice of reason, as usual. I agree
with you. From what I've learned of letterboxers, they
are very respectful, volunteering to adhere to both a
code of etiquette and a well-defined protocol for the
pastime. I don't have the same knowledge of geocaching
or geocachers. Also, why bother with writing
interesting clues for a box if you can just pick up a
GPS and pinpoint its location? To me, that is like
sweating to climb a mountain and finding that I could
have driven to the top. In the end, though, I think it
is really the planter's perogative about what he or
she wants to do. I just know that I don't put hybrids
at the top of my "must-find" list.

artTrekker

--- rscarpen wrote:

>
> > What do you all think of letterbox hybrids?
>
> I would discourage you from planting hybrids. Ask
> yourself this, why
> do you want to combine the two boxes? Typically,
> people who are
> thinking about planting hybrids have two answers:
>
> 1. To encourage those who are geocachers to "make
> the jump" into
> letterboxing. Especially in areas that have few
> letterboxes to begin
> with.
>
> There's the problem with that logic, however. Once
> a geocacher finds
> the cache, it's worthless to them as a letterbox
> since they'll already
> know where the box is! You'd be better off hiding a
> geocache and
> letterbox close, but keep them as two distinct
> entities. Then, in the
> cache, provide clues for the nearby letterbox. Not
> only will
> geocachers learn about letterboxing, but they'll
> even have an
> opportunity to find one. Much better, all things
> considered.
>
> The other answer people give:
>
> 2. There aren't many letterboxers in my area and if
> it's not a hybrid,
> the box may never get any visitors!
>
> In a case like that, it's basically just a geocache
> if only geocachers
> are visiting a hybid. Why waste your time carving a
> stamp if nobody
> who visits will appreciate it, or if they do, are
> likely to take it
> and replace it with some cheap toy from a Cracker
> Jack box?
>
> On a more personal level, if you check out my
> tutorial on Creating
> Great Letterboxes at
>
http://www.geocities.com/rscarpen/Lb/Docs/GreatBoxes/
> you'll notice
> the one thing I really try to hammer down is "Choose
> Your Audience".
> The more specific an audience you can identify for
> your box, the
> better it will turn out. If you can't even decide
> to make the box for
> a letterboxer or a geocacher, your box will be
> destined for, at best,
> the rank of mediocre and you'll get a reputation for
> hiding, at best,
> mediocre boxes.
>
> So yeah, I'm definitely on record as an
> 'anti-hybrid' kind of guy.
> Hasn't stopped others from hiding hybrids, though.
> ;o)
>
> -- Ryan
>
>
>
>




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> Geocachers often use existing trampled grasses to help them find a
> cache

Ack! That just sends shudders down my spine. You shouldn't be seeing
ANY trampled grasses to location a letterbox or a cache. That's part
of the Leave No Trace ethics--that includes trampling paths to boxes
or caches. If a box or cache is causing a trampled path to be formed,
it should be PULLED or turned into a word-of-mouth clue to limit the
numbers of people finding it. It's never okay to trample the environment!

Saying it's okay to trample a path is the type of thing that will get
both hobbies banned from otherwise receptive parks.

> Personally, I think the advantage of a hybrid box is that it reduces
> the impact on the environment, by only having one place for people
> to look.

On one of my trips to Sequoia National Park, I was surprised once when
a group of us were going to cross a meadow, the rangers instructed us
to fan out and NOT follow each other. There were no paths through
this meadow and the rangers did not want one to form. By fanning out
and each taking our own route across the meadow, it didn't trample
down a single path that others might be inclined to follow later, and
it meant any individual person would have a limited impact on the terrain.

My point in this story is that "reducing the impact on the
environment" is relative. If there are large numbers of people in an
area, a single trail will have the least impact overall. If it's a
single fairly large group of people invovled, spreading out actually
reduces the impact on the environment. The combination of
letterboxers and geocachers might trample an unwanted trail, while
separating the two could reduce the impact to unnoticeable levels.

There's a lot of factors that go into it, but a well placed box or
cache shouldn't cause such issues in the first place.

Don't get me wrong--I'm not trying to diss geocaching. They face the
same problems letterboxers do. Each has its attraction to different
people and that's fine--my contention is that in most cases, it's best
to keep the two hobbies seperate for no other reason to make members
of both hobbies enjoy themselves more.

But any talk of trampling the environment burns me the wrong way.
It's not a problem limited to geocaching either--I've seen it happen
with letterboxing too. But if a box or cache is trampling a trail,
it's a badly placed box and something needs to be done about it.

-- Ryan

If you place two boxes, say a couple hundred feet from each
> other, then you have the letterboxers going to find their box, and
> the
> geocachers going to find their separate box. Both groups may end up
> trammelling the area a bit more than if the boxes were in one place.
-- they're more likely to find the letterbox on accident and
> wonder why the cache has a stamp in it. Conversely, if the letterboxer
> misreads the clues or gets off track, they might wonder where the
> stamp is when they find the geocache.
>
> That's the reason I would give for "why do you want to place a
> hybrid?" It's an interesting site that members of both groups would
> enjoy, but I would want to localize the potential impact to one spot
> in the area.
>
> --Stephanie
>
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:37:57 -0000, rscarpen
> wrote:
> > > What do you all think of letterbox hybrids?
> >
> > I would discourage you from planting hybrids. Ask yourself this, why
> > do you want to combine the two boxes? Typically, people who are
> > thinking about planting hybrids have two answers:
>
>
> --
> Stephanie Bryant
> mortaine@g...
> http://www.mortaine.com

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 05:27:04 -0000, rscarpen
wrote:
>
> > Geocachers often use existing trampled grasses to help them find a
> > cache
>
> Ack! That just sends shudders down my spine. You shouldn't be seeing
> ANY trampled grasses to location a letterbox or a cache. That's part
> of the Leave No Trace ethics--that includes trampling paths to boxes
> or caches. If a box or cache is causing a trampled path to be formed,
> it should be PULLED or turned into a word-of-mouth clue to limit the
> numbers of people finding it. It's never okay to trample the environment!

I should probably make this clear. I live in the central coast of
California. Your choices in a typical meadow here are either: long
grasses in wintertime, or long dry grasses in summertime. The grasses
get "trammelled" in the sense that, if anyone's been through in the
last 3 days, you can tell. It's just the way it is. Same with when the
box is hidden underneath a bush-- the bush has to be ruffled a bit to
find the box-- you can tell. If you can't tell, it's usually because
you're not paying attention, not because everyone is so uber-stealthy
they don't even leave footprints.

Frequently, I might add, the "someone" who's been through is a deer--
a geocaching buddy of mine and I ended up waaay off-trail 2 weeks ago
by following a deer path on accident to what we thought would be the
cache location.

This doesn't mean the area is destroyed. It means that you see about
the same impact one would expect of a hiker walking 20' into the woods
to take a whiz. But when you have an extra 100 or so people visiting
the site a year.... it can add up. To think that no one will ever
leave any trace on their way to or from a geocache or letterbox... is
a little naive, don't you think?

--Stephanie

--
Stephanie Bryant
mortaine@gmail.com
http://www.mortaine.com

On Feb 15, 2005, at 10:23 PM, Stephanie Bryant wrote:

> I should probably make this clear. I live in the central coast of
> California.

I would like to point out the irony that Ryan is also a Central
California Coast native. I'm not even sure what comment I want to say
about this connection.

-- Princess

> To think that no one will ever leave any trace on their way to or from
> a geocache or letterbox... is a little naive, don't you think?

It may not be a 100% attainable goal, but it's a worthy one. Just
because world peace and a hunger-free world isn't likely to happen in
our lifetimes doesn't mean we should give up on them either.

Leaving a letterbox is a violation of the "Leave No Trace" principal
as well, though the spirit of the hobby kind of requires it. I'm
generally okay with it, though, since a well-planted box shouldn't be
seen except by those who are out to look for it. Trampled down
trails, though?

No, tis better to find a hiding place that doesn't require anyone to
trample new trails. Some terrain is perfectly suited for hiding boxes
well off the beaten path so I'm not saying people shouldn't hide boxes
off trail--just that care must be taken to make sure trampling of
vegetation doesn't happen.

Next time you find a trampled down area as a result of a letterbox or
geocache, try asking a ranger how they feel about it. Then ask them
if they'd be supportive of letterboxing and geocaching.

No, it's in our best interests not to create trampled down trail to
letterboxes, and any box planted that requires doing such a thing is
poorly planted. The person who planted it isn't a bad person or
evil--they just need to be educated on better hiding places and the
reasons they're necessary so it won't happen again in the future.

-- Ryan

--- In LbNCA@yahoogroups.com, "rscarpen" wrote:
>
> > To think that no one will ever leave any trace on their way to
or from
> > a geocache or letterbox... is a little naive, don't you think?



>
> It may not be a 100% attainable goal, but it's a worthy one.

One of our first letterboxes(Shore Bird in Huntinton Beach,
1/13/2001) was "Loved" to death. We planted it 3 feet off trail
under a bush, and there was so much traffic that the 3 ft. distance
was worn down and the bush took a beating. The letterbox was
discovered by some folks and removed. We subsequently replanted it
in an area that was more appropriate. Since that time we make sure
that the area we choose for our letterboxes would not be impacted by
traffic. Yes that can be done, just look for areas that are a little
more barren than the grassy hills, and such. It is a worthy goal to
try to keep our impact to a minimum, and I don't consider that being
naive.

Don

--- In LbNCA@yahoogroups.com, "gwendontoo" wrote:
> One of our first letterboxes(Shore Bird in Huntinton Beach,
> 1/13/2001) was "Loved" to death. We planted it 3 feet off trail
> under a bush, and there was so much traffic that the 3 ft.
distance
> was worn down and the bush took a beating.

I'll take pictures this weekend of what I'm talking about. I don't
think we're talking about the same kind of use/abuse.

--Stephanie

If I do go off the trail for a box,I make a point of taking the most
indirect route. For instance, from a trail twenty steps to a tree, I
wont make a bee line straight to the tree. I walk farther up the
trail and find a less/not traveled course to said tree. If I spot
signs of trampling I try to avoid that same area when possible(isn't
always though).-WW

Some terrain is perfectly suited for hiding boxes
> well off the beaten path so I'm not saying people shouldn't hide
boxes
> off trail--just that care must be taken to make sure trampling of
> vegetation doesn't happen.